Hemocrit too high help

[BigarmsAL]

Went to donate today and they won't even take my blood said it would just clot in the bag I know we all struggle with this on here what can I do to get these numbers down it needs to be 55 or below mine was at a 58

 

[nerco]

Comparative effect of angiotensin II type I receptor blockers and calcium channel blockers on laboratory parameters in hypertensive patients with type 2 diabetes

Both angiotensin II type I receptor blockers (ARBs) and calcium channel blockers (CCBs) are widely used antihypertensive drugs. Many clinical studies have demonstrated and compared the organ-protection effects and adverse events of these drugs. However, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

ARBs lower it. telmisartan would be a good option. Hows your bloodpressure look?

 

[BigarmsAL]

Comparative effect of angiotensin II type I receptor blockers and calcium channel blockers on laboratory parameters in hypertensive patients with type 2 diabetes

Both angiotensin II type I receptor blockers (ARBs) and calcium channel blockers (CCBs) are widely used antihypertensive drugs. Many clinical studies have demonstrated and compared the organ-protection effects and adverse events of these drugs. However, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

ARBs lower it. telmisartan would be a good option. Hows your bloodpressure look?

BP high I take lisinipril 10 mg daily

 

[Luxferro]

Go to your PCP and ask for a therapeutic phlebotomy ASAP. They’ll give it to you with your hematocrit. What compounds are you running? If you’re on mast/primo/EQ quit pinning them ASAP.

Consume a lot of grapefruit and hydrate a lot.

 

[BigarmsAL]

Go to your PCP and ask for a therapeutic phlebotomy ASAP. They’ll give it to you with your hematocrit. What compounds are you running? If you’re on mast/primo/EQ quit pinning them ASAP.

Consume a lot of grapefruit and hydrate a lot.

I haven't been on cycle since Sept was running mast deca anavar and test

 

[BigarmsAL]

Go to your PCP and ask for a therapeutic phlebotomy ASAP. They’ll give it to you with your hematocrit. What compounds are you running? If you’re on mast/primo/EQ quit pinning them ASAP.

Consume a lot of grapefruit and hydrate a lot.

I haven't been on cycle since Sept was running mast deca anavar and test

 

[BigarmsAL]

Go to your PCP and ask for a therapeutic phlebotomy ASAP. They’ll give it to you with your hematocrit. What compounds are you running? If you’re on mast/primo/EQ quit pinning them ASAP.

Consume a lot of grapefruit and hydrate a lot.

Is it safe to continue my trt 150 mg a week ?

 

[tejascardinal]

Dump blood. Start Telmisartan at 40mg ED.

 

[BigarmsAL]

Dump blood. Start Telmisartan at 40mg ED.

Is that something I can buy here or Need Dr prescription

 

[Luxferro]

Is that something I can buy here or Need Dr prescription

You can buy it but doctors will also give it to you very easily.

Telmisartan is a first line defense against hypertension. If you just mention that your BP is a bit high, most physicians will give it to you.

In terms of your TRT, you can continue on 150 mg but inject more frequently and subQ if you can tolerate. That will prevent a huge spike of test which can cause your RBC to go up more.

Naringin is in grapefruit. You can begin supplementing with that.

 

[tejascardinal]

Is that something I can buy here or Need Dr prescription

@-WG- sells it Pharma domestic

I plan on adding it to our lineup once we expand into domestic pharma

 

[BigarmsAL]

You can buy it but doctors will also give it to you very easily.

Telmisartan is a first line defense against hypertension. If you just mention that your BP is a bit high, most physicians will give it to you.

In terms of your TRT, you can continue on 150 mg but inject more frequently and subQ if you can tolerate. That will prevent a huge spike of test which can cause your RBC to go up more.

Naringin is in grapefruit. You can begin supplementing with that.

I appreciate the advice ill continue on my trt sub q maybe 3 times a week instead of 2 where woukd you go sub q at the stomach ?

 

[Thrasymachus]

If your hct is too high then it would be better to completely come off until you've drained enough blood and replaced your plasma to dilute out your concentrated blood.

Obviously T, DHT, E2 all cause stem cells to spit out blast cells that eventually become red blood cells.

The best approach is to learn how to self phlebotomy so you can remove what you want, when you want. Obviously medically directed therapeutic phlebotomy is the slower way to do it if you go the doctor route because they will only remove less than 10% of your blood volume based on weight and this can drag the process out. Where's I draw my own whole blood off about 1.3 liters at a time.

What I would do is have the doctor remove a unit of blood, wait a week for the plasma to be replaced, go in really well hydrated and then donate blood again, but this time a double red donation. This will empty you out faster and will be cheaper.

Then donate a unit of whole blood every 2 months.

As for ARB's fixing this problem, it will lower your blood pressure, might reduce your risk of cardiovascular problems, but it won't do anything to get rid of excess red blood cells, only one way to get rid of them and that's to remove blood.

A 58% hematocrit isn't that big of a deal, don't get me wrong you need to drain until your 50% or less, but there are plenty of people that live at high elevation that have hematocrits that high. I go around with a 58-60% pretty much all the time because I hyper respond to anabolics, so I have to draw off my own blood. The danger point is 65% or higher, that's when a long list of things go wrong, not death necessarily, but things like blurred vision, headaches, pounding chest when laying down, tinnitus, shortness of breath/poor cardio fitness, itching skin when it's hot.

 

[BigarmsAL]

If your hct is too high then it would be better to completely come off until you've drained enough blood and replaced your plasma to dilute out your concentrated blood.

Obviously T, DHT, E2 all cause stem cells to spit out blast cells that eventually become red blood cells.

The best approach is to learn how to self phlebotomy so you can remove what you want, when you want. Obviously medically directed therapeutic phlebotomy is the slower way to do it if you go the doctor route because they will only remove less than 10% of your blood volume based on weight and this can drag the process out. Where's I draw my own whole blood off about 1.3 liters at a time.

What I would do is have the doctor remove a unit of blood, wait a week for the plasma to be replaced, go in really well hydrated and then donate blood again, but this time a double red donation. This will empty you out faster and will be cheaper.

Then donate a unit of whole blood every 2 months.

As for ARB's fixing this problem, it will lower your blood pressure, might reduce your risk of cardiovascular problems, but it won't do anything to get rid of excess red blood cells, only one way to get rid of them and that's to remove blood.

A 58% hematocrit isn't that big of a deal, don't get me wrong you need to drain until your 50% or less, but there are plenty of people that live at high elevation that have hematocrits that high. I go around with a 58-60% pretty much all the time because I hyper respond to anabolics, so I have to draw off my own blood. The danger point is 65% or higher, that's when a long list of things go wrong, not death necessarily, but things like blurred vision, headaches, pounding chest when laying down, tinnitus, shortness of breath/poor cardio fitness, itching skin when it's hot.

Great info here definitely Good idea about doing it myself can you point me in direction for supplies

 

[Thrasymachus]

Great info here definitely Good idea about doing it myself can you point me in direction for supplies

For me I just use 18 or 19g butterfly needles, 60cc(35cc syringes are actually easier to pull back because they put less pressure on the sidewalls of the syringe, however it takes a lot more screwing on and off of the syringe before you can empty a liter of blood) syringes to draw out the blood and do this about 20 times into a 1 gallon bucket lined with trash bags and kitty litter to clot the blood. I bought 250 butterfly needles for dirt cheap on Ebay, but they don't allow the purchase of these needles anymore, but I do know that if you search for a box of butterfly needles online you can buy them without being a medical provider. Every body builder that uses anabolics for safety should know how to remove their own blood and have their own supplies because you'll often feel like crap if you don't get it taken care of quickly. I also remove the safety devices for the butterfly needle, I don't like mechanical safety devices on my butterfly, just the plastic slides that can easily be snapped off, the mechanical butterfly safety devices suck because they increase the angle because of the bulk.

For you I recommend having someone help you draw off the blood, I have a set up that allows me to do this all by myself and it requires an adjustable height and angle arm bench, 12" hemostats to hold the end of the butterfly needle hose connecting to the syringe, to allow me to screw on and off the syringe over and over until I've dumped what I need. I cover the bench and table with heavy duty clear vinyl and I use gorilla tape to secure the hemostat in place when they are clamped to the end of the butterfly needle hosing, so I can screw off and on the syringe from the butterfly hose end while emptying the blood into the bucket.

The hemostats need to be bent on the end in order to angle the end of the butterfly hose adapter and the syringe plunger away from you at 30 degrees to make it easier to hold the syringe with one hand and pull on the plunger with the other hand.

Also it's a good idea to pick up some 10ml EDTA purple top tubes so you can pop the cap and fill the tube up and let it sit for 72hrs in a vertical position cap side up, to see what your hct was when starting this after the cells settle and separate from the plasma allowing you to use a millimeter ruler to calculate the hematocrit based on measured plasma to cells ratio.

You should also have a gallon of water ready to chug while someone is drawing off your blood, because drawing off blood can make you sick to your stomach and you need to replace lost fluid volume as fast as possible to keep from feeling dizzy. Continue to chug water all day long as well. Don't plan on doing anything physical for a couple of days after you do this, just to be safe because you need to take it easy until you've replaced your fluid loss.

 

[BigarmsAL]

For me I just use 18 or 19g butterfly needles, 60cc(35cc syringes are actually easier to pull back because they put less pressure on the sidewalls of the syringe, however it takes a lot more screwing on and off of the syringe before you can empty a liter of blood) syringes to draw out the blood and do this about 20 times into a 1 gallon bucket lined with trash bags and kitty litter to clot the blood. I bought 250 butterfly needles for dirt cheap on Ebay, but they don't allow the purchase of these needles anymore, but I do know that if you search for a box of butterfly needles online you can buy them without being a medical provider. Every body builder that uses anabolics for safety should know how to remove their own blood and have their own supplies because you'll often feel like crap if you don't get it taken care of quickly. I also remove the safety devices for the butterfly needle, I don't like mechanical safety devices on my butterfly, just the plastic slides that can easily be snapped off, the mechanical butterfly safety devices suck because they increase the angle because of the bulk.

For you I recommend having someone help you draw off the blood, I have a set up that allows me to do this all by myself and it requires an adjustable height and angle arm bench, 12" hemostats to hold the end of the butterfly needle hose connecting to the syringe, to allow me to screw on and off the syringe over and over until I've dumped what I need. I cover the bench and table with heavy duty clear vinyl and I use gorilla tape to secure the hemostat in place when they are clamped to the end of the butterfly needle hosing, so I can screw off and on the syringe from the butterfly hose end while emptying the blood into the bucket.
7
The hemostats need to be bent on the end in order to angle the end of the butterfly hose adapter and the syringe plunger away from you at 30 degrees to make it easier to hold the syringe with one hand and pull on the plunger with the other hand.

Also it's a good idea to pick up some 10ml EDTA purple top tubes so you can pop the cap and fill the tube up and let it sit for 72hrs in a vertical position cap side up, to see what your hct was when starting this after the cells settle and separate from the plasma allowing you to use a millimeter ruler to calculate the hematocrit based on measured plasma to cells ratio.

You should also have a gallon of water ready to chug while someone is drawing off your blood, because drawing off blood can make you sick to your stomach and you need to replace lost fluid volume as fast as possible to keep from feeling dizzy. Continue to chug water all day long as well. Don't plan on doing anything physical for a couple of days after you do this, just to be safe because you need to take it easy until you've replaced your fluid loss.

Man I really appreciate the lengthy info on this my sister is a nurse so maybe I'll have her do it for me have an apt on Thursday to get 500ml taken roughly do you know what precent will that take if my hemocrit is 57

 

[Thrasymachus]

Man I really appreciate the lengthy info on this my sister is a nurse so maybe I'll have her do it for me have an apt on Thursday to get 500ml taken roughly do you know what precent will that take if my hemocrit is 57

Typical rule is no more than 500ml(blood banks usually only take 450ml) at a time because that's usually about 10% blood volume for someone with a normal hematocrit and normal body composition. However fat carries much less blood than muscle and by your picture you obviously have a lot more muscle mass and that carries quite a bit more blood. Fat only carries 10% of the blood volume that muscle does.

So the reason they do this 10% cut off is to prevent tachycardia(increased heart rate) caused by fluid lose in the circulatory system. It's a reflex reaction by the body that thinks it suddenly loss needed blood to the brain.

10% of 57 is obviously 5.7% drop, or 57%/3 gives you your hgb of 19 or 20g/dl which would be a 2 gram drop to 17 or 18g/dl at 500ml removal. So you will get down to perhaps 51% with this removal. The problem is the body produces at least 25ml of packed red cells every day, so obviously within 12 days you've probably replaced what you lost with the therapeutic phlebotomy.

One also has to consider that the main cause of this is that exogenous steroids cause a decrease in hepicidin in the GI tract and this causes an increase in iron mostly from meat consumption. Normally the body regulates this hepicidin to make sure you don't get too much iron(hgb is produced from iron) as overdose is toxic and normally blood has no where to go unless you're a menstruating female. So the more you remove blood, the more iron you remove and this pulls from your iron stores (Ferritin), and eventually you will have a lower stored iron level and this is when the blood removal works best. Because you don't want your iron levels to go too low as you'll get fatigue and restless leg syndrome(I've had this where your legs start going crazy while in bed sleeping), it's simple matter of a vitamin with 18mg of iron to fix this issue real quick, so it's nothing to worry about. The main thing is that the more often you remove blood the longer you'll be able to go between needing to remove blood, so every 2 months might become 4 months and then 6 months eventually. Obviously you want to use vitamins that don't have iron as most body builders already eat plenty of meat and have no need for supplementation. It's also a good idea to avoid B12 as well as that is a build block of rbcs as well and once again anyone that eats meat doesn't have to worry about this.

 

[BigarmsAL]

Typical rule is no more than 500ml(blood banks usually only take 450ml) at a time because that's usually about 10% blood volume for someone with a normal hematocrit and normal body composition. However fat carries much less blood than muscle and by your picture you obviously have a lot more muscle mass and that carries quite a bit more blood. Fat only carries 10% of the blood volume that muscle does.

So the reason they do this 10% cut off is to prevent tachycardia(increased heart rate) caused by fluid lose in the circulatory system. It's a reflex reaction by the body that thinks it suddenly loss needed blood to the brain.

10% of 57 is obviously 5.7% drop, or 57%/3 gives you your hgb of 19 or 20g/dl which would be a 2 gram drop to 17 or 18g/dl at 500ml removal. So you will get down to perhaps 51% with this removal. The problem is the body produces at least 25ml of packed red cells every day, so obviously within 12 days you've probably replaced what you lost with the therapeutic phlebotomy.

One also has to consider that the main cause of this is that exogenous steroids cause a decrease in hepicidin in the GI tract and this causes an increase in iron mostly from meat consumption. Normally the body regulates this hepicidin to make sure you don't get too much iron(hgb is produced from iron) as overdose is toxic and normally blood has no where to go unless you're a menstruating female. So the more you remove blood, the more iron you remove and this pulls from your iron stores (Ferritin), and eventually you will have a lower stored iron level and this is when the blood removal works best. Because you don't want your iron levels to go too low as you'll get fatigue and restless leg syndrome(I've had this where your legs start going crazy while in bed sleeping), it's simple matter of a vitamin with 18mg of iron to fix this issue real quick, so it's nothing to worry about. The main thing is that the more often you remove blood the longer you'll be able to go between needing to remove blood, so every 2 months might become 4 months and then 6 months eventually. Obviously you want to use vitamins that don't have iron as most body builders already eat plenty of meat and have no need for supplementation. It's also a good idea to avoid B12 as well as that is a build block of rbcs as well and once again anyone that eats meat doesn't have to worry about this.

Typical rule is no more than 500ml(blood banks usually only take 450ml) at a time because that's usually about 10% blood volume for someone with a normal hematocrit and normal body composition. However fat carries much less blood than muscle and by your picture you obviously have a lot more muscle mass and that carries quite a bit more blood. Fat only carries 10% of the blood volume that muscle does.

So the reason they do this 10% cut off is to prevent tachycardia(increased heart rate) caused by fluid lose in the circulatory system. It's a reflex reaction by the body that thinks it suddenly loss needed blood to the brain.

10% of 57 is obviously 5.7% drop, or 57%/3 gives you your hgb of 19 or 20g/dl which would be a 2 gram drop to 17 or 18g/dl at 500ml removal. So you will get down to perhaps 51% with this removal. The problem is the body produces at least 25ml of packed red cells every day, so obviously within 12 days you've probably replaced what you lost with the therapeutic phlebotomy.

One also has to consider that the main cause of this is that exogenous steroids cause a decrease in hepicidin in the GI tract and this causes an increase in iron mostly from meat consumption. Normally the body regulates this hepicidin to make sure you don't get too much iron(hgb is produced from iron) as overdose is toxic and normally blood has no where to go unless you're a menstruating female. So the more you remove blood, the more iron you remove and this pulls from your iron stores (Ferritin), and eventually you will have a lower stored iron level and this is when the blood removal works best. Because you don't want your iron levels to go too low as you'll get fatigue and restless leg syndrome(I've had this where your legs start going crazy while in bed sleeping), it's simple matter of a vitamin with 18mg of iron to fix this issue real quick, so it's nothing to worry about. The main thing is that the more often you remove blood the longer you'll be able to go between needing to remove blood, so every 2 months might become 4 months and then 6 months eventually. Obviously you want to use vitamins that don't have iron as most body builders already eat plenty of meat and have no need for supplementation. It's also a good idea to avoid B12 as well as that is a build block of rbcs as well and once again anyone that eats meat doesn't have to worry about this.

Okay thanks for the info so after this go around with 500ml when would you recommend I go back for a donation?

 

[Thrasymachus]

Okay thanks for the info so after this go around with 500ml when would you recommend I go back for a donation?

I would wait perhaps 10 days after you're plenty hydrated to have another unit drawn off. You might no like the double red donation, because they have to separate the plasma and put it back into you, which is a pain. 2 units of whole blood donation should remove enough blood to where you can get on a every 2 month schedule for blood donation and see what happens. If you keep having a hct that is too high then you have no choice but to either learn to remove the blood yourself or reduce your dose by increasing frequency with smaller doses that give you the anabolics you need without a large peak that causes your stem cells to drastically ramp up production of rbcs.

This is very complicated matter. There are guys that can do a gram a week and have little effect on their hct, and then there are guys like myself that do 100mg and my hct is sitting at 60+%. This goes beyond just genetics like the C282Y or HD63 genetic mutations that are fairly common in white European males or even the JAK2 mutation that causes increase red cell production . So far from my own study on this matter it appears that lots of guys are outliers and don't have any of the various genetic markers for increased Erythrocytosis(increase in rbcs). This simply the stem cells that go into overdrive when anabolics are introduced. The main concern isn't just the higher hct, it's that if someone does this for many years it will cause scaring in the long bones where the rbcs mature and have to pass through very small pores in the bones that eventually become scared when too many rbcs are being produced and moved into circulation. The other thing is too many rbcs stress the spleen, liver, kidneys, it's not something you want to be going on for a long time, thus the reason to get your labs drawn on the regular and get yourself on a regular blood donation schedule, but remember not to tell the donation center that you're using anabolics.

 

[BigarmsAL]

I would wait perhaps 10 days after you're plenty hydrated to have another unit drawn off. You might no like the double red donation, because they have to separate the plasma and put it back into you, which is a pain. 2 units of whole blood donation should remove enough blood to where you can get on a every 2 month schedule for blood donation and see what happens. If you keep having a hct that is too high then you have no choice but to either learn to remove the blood yourself or reduce your dose by increasing frequency with smaller doses that give you the anabolics you need without a large peak that causes your stem cells to drastically ramp up production of rbcs.

This is very complicated matter. There are guys that can do a gram a week and have little effect on their hct, and then there are guys like myself that do 100mg and my hct is sitting at 60+%. This goes beyond just genetics like the C282Y or HD63 genetic mutations that are fairly common in white European males or even the JAK2 mutation that causes increase red cell production . So far from my own study on this matter it appears that lots of guys are outliers and don't have any of the various genetic markers for increased Erythrocytosis(increase in rbcs). This simply the stem cells that go into overdrive when anabolics are introduced. The main concern isn't just the higher hct, it's that if someone does this for many years it will cause scaring in the long bones where the rbcs mature and have to pass through very small pores in the bones that eventually become scared when too many rbcs are being produced and moved into circulation. The other thing is too many rbcs stress the spleen, liver, kidneys, it's not something you want to be going on for a long time, thus the reason to get your labs drawn on the regular and get yourself on a regular blood donation schedule, but remember not to tell the donation center that you're using anabolics.

You definitely know your stuff man what a life saver grateful for you brother I'm currently just on trt 150 mg a week but doing small doses 3 to 4 times a week hoping that won't have a huge impact on rbc I do get my bloods done every 3 months no matter what anyhow this is the just first time my hematocrit levels have been higher than I like so it's time to take action